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I know I'm not popular whatsoever on this site, but I need serious help. I'm sure several people on this site may have noticed War Song, Revised (3.5e Spell), and I have mentioned on the talk that I want to do a higher level followup. The followup ideally would have the same mechanics applied over an area, targeting multiple creatures. However, the way I have been working this have resulted in only two ways: either it only effects bards (yeah, that's useful) or all creatures in the target area that aren't bards or flavorful rogues become helpless vegetables, ready to be coup de grace soup. So, does anyone have ideas?--Teh Storm 07:40, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Both ideas sound dumb. (This message has been brought to you by the online campaign of people against dumb ideas.) --Ghostwheel 08:14, June 25, 2010 (UTC)
If you mean the previous effects, I agree, that's why I am asking for help. If you mean the idea of having a followup is dumb, why are you even on here?--Teh Storm 08:20, June 25, 2010 (UTC)
That is all. --Ghostwheel 08:27, June 25, 2010 (UTC)
If those are your two options for debuff, just don't have it affect enemies at all. Make it an area buff for all of your allies instead. - TarkisFlux 15:01, June 25, 2010 (UTC)
When you hit someone with a fireball, damage is based on your caster level not theirs. So why does this spell (Bardic Duel) work off the targets Perform ranks, but not the casters? I think that's the largest mechanical flaw in what you're trying to do (aside from the function of the spell itself).--Tavis McCricket 22:39, June 25, 2010 (UTC)
My point exactly! I listed the effects I have come up with because that is how the mechanics have been working so far and they suck! As of now, Bardic Duel is drowning in the muck of it's own suckishness. I would love Bardic Duel to work in D&D, but it needs a mechanical way to do so. I have been running in circles trying to get it to work, so now I am asking for the advice of the veterans of this site: How could I take the mechanics of War Song and apply it in an area with it coming out over or under powered?--Teh Storm 00:57, June 26, 2010 (UTC)
The mechanics of War Song are a self buff. Applying that to a group would give it to the rest of your party as a group buff, and use the caster's level / perform ranks as the base. Done. At no point is there an enemy effect in there, and there doesn't need to be with the directions you've provided.
If you wanted to apply the mechanics of your earlier war song thingy to a group, please repost it or at least an outline of how it was supposed to work, and then indicate if you want it to affect enemies or allies or both or what. Right now your end goals and means are too vague to provide anything useful. - TarkisFlux 02:06, June 26, 2010 (UTC)
Hopeful end result- the effects of War Song (replacing strength and dexterity scores with a perform skill, as well as a weapon effect and power related to the perform skill) spread over a defined radius, forcing all creatures, hostile and benign, to choose a perform skill of their own and reap the benefits or follies of their perform rating. I have found no way to make this work on any balance level. Any advice would be awesome.--Teh Storm 05:33, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
Advice: Use the balanced version of that instead. --Ghostwheel 06:52, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
Specific Advice:
  1. I don't think war song is a particularly strong buff, and it's probably a step back for characters some of the time even. But trying to turn it into a prayer type of thing where some guys get a bonus and some guys get a penalty is complete fail. It's too big to be able to do that with. If you want it to affect everyone positively or negatively, the friendly buff needs to be scaled back already. If you're not willing to drop the buff, you need to give up on the spell affecting enemies as a de-buff.
  2. You already know that most perform skills suck and aren't going to be able to power the spell, so you need to drop the idea and move on. If you're going ally only, you don't make them use their own perform skill. Allow them to use yours instead if they want, but let them pick a different instrument so you get more of a band thing going.
General Advice: Be more flexible with your ideas. If you can't get everything you want, decide on something else to get. Your original plan doesn't work. Move on already, and try something else. - TarkisFlux 16:30, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
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